Transcript of Knudsen Family ARRB Interview

Date of interview: May 10, 1996.

Gloria Knudsen is the wife of former White House photographer Robert Knudsen, who passed away in 1989. Their daughter Terri and son Bob also participated in this interview conducted by the Assassination Records Review Board.

The family told ARRB staff what Robert Knudsen had related to them about his role in the events surrounding the assassination. This included their recollection that Knudsen had not only been involved in developing autopsy pictures, he had also photographed the autopsy. Mr. Knudsen had also told his family about pictures with probes through JFK's body, and said that photographs now in evidence included some which were altered.

Robert Knudsen had been interviewed by the HSCA in 1978; in that interview he told of his role in developing JFK autopsy photographs and his adamant recollection that he had seen at least one photo with metal probes through the body (apparently lead autopsy prosector Dr. Humes in 1967 had privately discussed this as well).

The family also described Knudsen's consternation over never having received a copy of the transcript of his HSCA testimony, though the ARRB showed them a signature page and the family agreed that it was Robert's signature. The audiotape of the HSCA interview would be a natural place to go to verify the accuracy of the transcript. Unfortunately, the tape of that interview does not include Knudsen's voice. Instead, it sounds like the voice of a stenographer transcribing the interview as it occurred, though that is difficult to discern with certainty. Furthermore, parts of the tape are overwritten with unrelated audio material.

The family tells some disturbing and unusual stories, and some almost funny ones, like his daughter Terri being made by her father to read the Warren Report out loud, while Dad would pick up his pipe and nod his head and ask questions like "Do you really think that what they said there makes sense?" But also there are other parts of their story which are hard to square with the record - among them their insistence that Robert photographed Kennedy's autopsy.

The idea that Knudsen photographed the autopsy is nowhere in the record - everyone described John Stringer as the photographer, with Edward Reed assisting. And Knudsen said nothing about this to the HSCA. On the other hand, Saundra Kay Spencer, the NPIC photo developer known to have processed JFK's autopsy photographs, disavowed the official NARA set and described different "clean" pictures. Perhaps Knudsen only photographed the body post-autopsy, away from most of the autopsy participants, and this is the set Spencer developed. The NARA set of bloodier photographs, taken by Stringer, was likely processed elsewhere, perhaps by the Secret Service. But contradicting this interpretation is the fact that Knudsen had told the HSCA that he himself, unassisted, had developed the photos at NPIC.

This interview is unsettling and raises more questions than it answers, but is well worth listening to as well as reading.

Also see ARRB MD 230, the ARRB call report and the report of this meeting.

This interview was taped in three parts.

You can play the audio while reading along with the transcripts.

This transcript was created by Joshua Jackson.

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REEL 1, SIDE 1

Speakers:

GK = Gloria Knudsen, widow of Robert Knudsen
TD = Terri Dalton (nee Knudsen), daughter
RK = Bob Knudsen, son
DH = Douglas Horne, ARRB Chief Analyst
JG = Jeremy Gunn, ARRB General Counsel
TW = Tim Wray, ARRB Chief Analyst
DM = David Montague, ARRB Senior Investigator

DM: —that we had last time. And at the end today, we have the materials that you asked for—

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: - to provide to you.

GK: Okay.

DM: So we have it ready for you.

GK: Okay.

DM: If we could go ahead and start, let me ask you [crosstalk]—

GK: Well, don't take it out of the room.

DM: No, no. It's gonna stay right here.

GK: You know, there's really nothing in there: it's just his datebook. There's no diary. He had—you know, if you can't keep it in your head—you don't have it, you don't need it. And he was a Navy man, and a—

TD: And also Dad had a near-photographic memory.

GK: Yes, he did.

DM: Wow.

TD: It's important to know that. And he could remember and have total recall of conversations, dates, and things. Mom will tell you. I happened to inherit that from my father [unintelligible] crazy, 'cause I can sit down and go back over and reiterate [unintelligible].

DM: Is this one, here?

TD: Yeah.

GK: That's Bob.

DM: Okay. This is when, 19—

GK: -63.

DM: - '63? Okay. This is excellent. We—is it okay if we just hold onto this when we're done, for a little while, in case we need to use it? Or is that—we can give it back to you.

TD: Sure about [crosstalk]—

DM: - use it? Or is that—we can give it back to you.

GK: Well, it might be 1964.

TD: It's earlier.

GK: Huh?

TD: That's earlier.

RK: Yeah, it—

GK: No. Bob—Bill was born November the 3rd of '58.

RK: Oh, that's right.

TD: I'm telling you, I'm too young in that picture.

GK: Oh. That's right, yeah. So that's 1963.

TD: Yeah.

DM: This one [crosstalk]—

TD: That's '63.

GK: That's [unintelligible] at the White House.

DM: It's a nice picture.

RK: Yeah.

GK: That was the military reception they held every year. And Bob was gonna come in civvies because he was an enlisted man. And the President said, "No, Bob, you will wear—"

DM: [Laughter]

GK: "- what you are because—"

DM: Right.

GK: "-this is a military reception." That is a picture of Bob taken during the funeral arrangement [unintelligible] in the White House with some of the other people.

DM: Do you know who these people are?

GK: Nope. Well—

TD: [Unintelligible] Those people, sure. I know both of those people. You know who they are.

GK: Yeah. They're the—

TD: White House stewards.

GK: - White House stewards.

DM: Uh huh.

RK: I think one of 'em is dead. See—

GK: Wait, isn't one Charlie Pickman?

TD: Yeah. Charlie Pickman's on the left [unintelligible].

GK: No. I think that's his brother.

RK: And that's the guy who—he changed, and went over to the Capitol.

GK: Oh, did he? Yeah. No, that's not Charlie Pickman.

DM: And on the back, was this—is that, uh—

TD: Yeah.

GK: Mm-hmm. That's John Junior.

RK: Yeah. John Junior.

GK: Yeah.

DM: Oh, wow. That's nice.

GK: I took that out of an album that says, "Working with the camera." And different people would give him things.

DM: This is the letter?

GK: That's the letter.

DM: Okay.

GK: And, you know, I think that I sensed a little bit of—wondering whether—because of the eye injury—whether he could photograph anything very well. And that was a National Geographic book. And—

TD: That's the funeral.

DM: Okay.

GK: That's the funeral, and that is—gives him the photo credit there. And these are just a couple pictures, when the body left the White House to go to the Capitol, that he took.

RK: [Crosstalk]

GK: Insignificant in a way, probably, but—

RK: Those are me. Those are some of the collection, I believe, there'd be numbers on the back.

GK: Yep.

RK: Should be [unintelligible].

JG: If I could ask a question about the—I'm sorry I didn't hear—what you said about these?

GK: Those are of the body leaving the White House, when it was in state at the White House, and going to the Capitol.

JG: Did that happen at night?

TW: Well, I'm sure it was.

RK: [Crosstalk] left.

GK: Mm-hmm.

JG: Yeah. So that— [Crosstalk]

BK: That's not—that's not—

DH: Might this be the arrival?

GK: No. Is that the night that it came?

RK: That was it—that's it arriving at the White House.

GK: Arriving at the White House. Okay?

JG: So this is after the autopsy, arriving at the White House?

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: So it's coming from [unintelligible] Bethesda.

GK: And this is really insignificant: it's just a letter I wrote to one of our photographers at the White House,—

DM: Mm-hmm.

GK: - about who was at the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library reiterating some of the stuff that Bob had done. So I don't really think that's significant.

DM: Okay.

GK: You know, I brought it. I had—if you wanna glance at it.

JG: Sure, sure, of course. You can hold it for me?

DM: Is—that's—is that pretty much everything you have?

GK: 'Cause this is the stuff that [unintelligible] sent us.

DM: That I—okay. I hoped it was informative.

GK: Yeah, it was. I read that. It was very interesting.

DM: We have—actually—

GK: We have—

RK: - unintelligible] duplications of a lot of the pictures that my Dad took. [Unintelligible] That's what those are. Those are [unintelligible]—

DH: Did Robert take these pictures?

RK: Think so.

GK: 'Mm-hmm.

DM: Okay.

GK: In fact, that's him—that's him—that's his printing identifying them. And I don't what know the purpose was, 'cause—as the people at church said that—

RK: I'm pretty sure that this is the naval.

GK: Yeah.

RK: That's the naval.

GK: Yeah.

RK: It's coming back from the hospital.

GK: Yeah.

DH: This is a beautiful photograph.

GK: But, well, you know, color fades fades after a while, but—

DH: There are [Unintelligible]?

GK: Well, that's one thing: that I could always tell his work from anybody else's because it was sharp everywhere.

DM: Well, lemme go ahead and just—just basically, because Doug and Linda and I had a lotta in-depth conversation with you—oh, and just, we had to talk it out—for Terri and Bob, and to make sure [unintelligible]—

RK: [Unintelligible]

[Laughter]

DM: —to make sure that everybody starts off on one chord. And when I first talked to you—I'm sorry, when Doug and I talked to you last week, from earlier this week, we asked you to go back to 1963, and you were telling us about the fact that Bob used to normally travel with the President—

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: - and taking photos and so forth. But he did not on this particular—go to Dallas—he didn't go to Dallas on this particular trip because of an eye injury.

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: We also talked about the fact that—well, who went instead of [unintelligible]—

GK: Cecil Stoughton went instead.

DM: Cecil Stoughton. Okay. Alright.—

RK: They decided to send one photographer because it was just gonna be a pretty short trip.

DM: Okay. Alright.

RK: Normally, they'd have [crosstalk] more.

GK: Yeah, you know, and if Bob had wanted to go, he would have, but he felt like it was a good excuse to stay behind.

RK: He was gonna have to—I think he was gonna have to go to Hyannisport for Thanksgiving, anyway,—

GK: Yeah.

RK: - after that, so—

DM: Well, after that we talked about the fact that you all were having lunch the day of the assassination.

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: And you heard it over the radio?

GK: Well, I did at the same time that she came home from school. She can tell you [unintelligible].

RK: [Laughter]

TD: They announced it at school, and the minute I heard it I knew, that means my dad's going away for a long time.

[Laughter]

DM: Wow.

TD: So I came running home and he says, you know, If the President's been killed, my Dad would know it's happened; that doesn't happen, and I could doubt he had; you know, if he had, we'd know about it. Then we turned on the radio and there was the announcement. About that time, my Uncle called. And my father, just totally composed, "Alright," and he had a call; called into the White House. And they asked him to come in, which he'd already gotten ready for. He went in, he showered, he shaved, he got dressed in a suit, he packed a bag, and he said, "I'm probably just gonna be gone for a couple days." Because they just leave, very much, the staff behind. And he said, "I know I'm gonna be needed," and he said, "I need to be down there." And he said, "I'll call home when I get a chance," and he left and that was [unintelligible].

GK: Three days later we heard from him.

TD: And then we all went down and viewed the casket, and—

RK: Mm-hmm. [Unintelligible]

TD: - as it laid in state, we talked to him.

[Laughter]

TD: And then that was—

JG: Was that at the White House or at the Capitol?

[Multiple]:The White House.

DM: Oh, hate to interrupt like this, but one thing I forgot to ask you: just so we don't have to take that many notes as we would normally do, would you mind if we tape our conversation to make it—for us, and to—oh, excuse me for not doing that initially. It's difficult— [Unintelligible]

DH: That means just ask—instead of us having to write for [unintelligible] when you're talking,, it's kind of relaxed, you know—

[Laughter]

DH: [Unintelligible]

GK: Well, like I said—

RK: Used to it, yeah.

GK: - [crosstalk] you get used to meeting.

[Laughter]

DH: That's right. Where did you park?

RK/GK: Underneath.

DH: Underneath? Oh, there was still a space open? Congratulations.

GK: Handicapped.

[Laughter]

DH: I don't blame you.

TD: Well, he directed us in the spot, so we just went where—

DM: Okay. Alright. Sorry about that. So you were having—

JG: Why don't we start it at—hit "start" and, you know, let's start at the beginning and just point out where we are.

DM: Okay. We—

—[Extraneous Conversation]—

DM: - we started off talking about where you were at the time of the assassination. You were having lunch. You got a call. You're at school.

JG: Let's just identify—

RK: Terri.

JG: - who's here in the room.

DM: Okay.

TD: I'm Terri Dalton, the daughter, and I was at school when they made the announcement. They dismissed us from school, and I went running home, because I knew that that meant dad was gonna be gone for awhile whenever there was anything like that.

I came home and told my father that the President had been assassinated. And he said, "No, it couldn't be;" he would have known about it. He turned on the radio, and about that time he heard it on the radio. And he just solemnly and just very soberly got up, started to pack the bags, took a shower, got dressed in a suit, and said he'd be gone for a while because he'd probably have to stay down there at the White House, because there was not a lotta staff left behind, and that he was gonna need to be down there.

One thing I didn't say before, and believve it's important, is my father, even though he worked for President Kennedy, felt brotherly towards him. They were extremely close, and he was close to the whole Kennedy family. The illustration's—which would be just a few years—maybe the last year before he died: he was covering a Kennedy family event at Bobby Kennedy's house. He was standing there—

RK: Teddy's?

TD: Teddy's? No, I think it was at Bobby's house.

GK: Bobby's. Yeah.

[Crosstalk]

TD: It was at Bobby's house, and Caroline looked across the room. She came running over and she says, "Aren't you my Uncle Bob?" And my dad just got choked up and he says, "You really aren't Uncle Bob," because she remembered him when she was a kid. My dad used to play with the kids.

[Unintelligible] the famous picture of the President on the helm of the boat with the jacket? He was wearing my dad's jacket. My dad had the Presidential jacket, and Jack Kennedy got cold, and he says, "Bob, give me your jacket." They just were that close, so it was really moving to our whole family that Caroline, you know, just a few years ago: "Aren't you my Uncle Bob? I remember you."

JG: It really isn't good that way.

DM: Yeah, it's—should announce everybody—

DH: Let's—Tim we—

JG: The date is May 10, 1996. We're meeting at the Assassination Records Review Board offices on 600 E Street Northwest. Just if everyone in the room could introduce themselves, just very briefly, so we have a background, and then go further into the discussion. My name's Jeremy Gunn. I'm on the Review Board staff.

DM: David Montague, Review Board staff.

TD: Terri Dalton, daughter of Bob Knudsen.

GK: Gloria Knudsen, wife of Bob Knudsen.

RK: Rob Knudsen, son of Robert Knudsen.

TW: Tim Wray, I'm ARRB staff.

DH: Doug Horne, Review Board staff.

DM: Now, you were having lunch at the time. You heard the report, right? Now, you were telling Doug and I that Bob received a call. Who called him? Was it Secret Service, you said, or—

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: - someone else? Secret Service? Do you remember who?

GK: [Laughter] No.

DM: Okay. He didn't say? Okay.

GK: He may have said, but I don't remember because names were used loosely.

RK: [Laughter]

DM: Yeah. I can imagine. So after the call came, you said he said—what did he tell ya after the phone call?

GK: Well, he just said, "Well, I've gotta go. I'm needed, and I've gotta meet the body." That was probably about it. The man—how did the man at church say? "He used his words measurably and well-calculated."

[Laughter]

JG: Approximately what was the time of the telephone call from the Secret Service?

GK: I don't know. I would say—well, I'd be guessing, I'd really be guessing—I'd say, you know, it could've been 2 PM; it could have been 3PM.

JG: Somewhere in mid-afternoon, still—

GK: Yeah, probably. 'Cause at the time, they had not truly announced that he was dead, but he was just severely wounded.

TW: Now, when he left the house, do you recall whether his first intention was to go to the White House, or was he going to Bethesda? Did they know that yet?

GK: No, he was gonna go to the White House, as far as I know, because then he could go in the Secret Service—park his own car and go in the Secret Service jump car.

TW: So he went to the White House, and I think you said a minute ago, sort of jokingly, that you didn't see him again for three days.

GK: Yeah, we didn't.

TD: That was the story of our life when dad worked at the White House. He'd get a call, they'd page him in church, they'd page him wherever he was. And after a while, I don't know who—what administration it was—we got a hotline phone installed in the house. When it rang, that meant my father had to leave, and he'd be gone for a while. We just got used to the fact that wherever we were they'd find us and he'd leave.

RK: Or we'd—whether we were out fishing or at home, you know, we—they found him with the ringer. He'd had—he had a pager before pagers were the thing to wear.

[Laughter]

But, you know, the phone would ring, we knew that whenever it would ring, that if Dad was around [unintelligible] that he'll get it; if not, then we'd just pick it up and set it down on the hook, okay?

GK: [Unintelligible]

DM: [Laughter]

TW: Lemme ask you—maybe this would be a good way to proceed, now—is he leaves the house, and you don't see him for three days, and then obviously later he told you what he did for that time. Why don't you tell us that, and then we can kinda go back and fill in details and ask you questions?

GK: He was so broken up that it was just beyond belief. He just shared with me the condition of the President's head, and, you know, just, you know, "I can't believe somebody would get him like that."

JG: If we could go back, and I'm sorry to—to do this: how—when—when did he seethe—after the President had died, when did he—he first see the President?

RK: He met the—he met the body at Andrews—

GK: At Andrews, yeah.

RK: - Air Force Base, and accompanied the coffin over to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

TD: In a Secret Service car.

GK: Mm-hmm.

JG: Okay.

DM: Did he [unintelligible] the body at Andrews? Or was he—at Bethesda?

GK: Wellno, but, they didn't open it up. No.

RK: No, they don't—he—no.

RK: He said he didn't see it 'til—'til it got to Bethesda.

TW: In a sense, was he with—from the time it arrived at Andrews, he was in a Secret Service car? He wasn't in a hearse with the President's coffin?

GK/RK: No. [Laughter]

TW: But, then he went to—did he follow it to Bethesda.

GK: Uh-huh.

TW: This may sound like a petty point, but did he go in the front of Bethesda Hospital, or did he go around to the loading dock where the coffin was off-loaded?

RK: Loading dock.

GK: I would say the loading dock.

RK: 'Cause he was in the [unintelligible] car with it.

TW: Wait, is that a clear recollection, with the loading dock?

GK: Yeah.

TW: And did he tell you about the events that occurred then with the loading dock and then going into the autopsy room or anything like that?

GK: Oh, no. [Crosstalk]

TW: So, that's just, you know, blank part of the story [unintelligible]. But he didn't—

GK: Bot was probably—

TD: He said it was the hardest thing he'd ever had to do in his life.

TW: Was?

TD: To view the body in the condition it came in, and to be assigned to be the autopsy photographer, because he loved him like a brother. And to him it was—he said it, over and over again—he's a man of very few words—but "It was the hardest thing I've ever done."

TW: Why don't you tell us about that? You know, about—with what you know: the elements of the autopsy, and taking pictures, or whatever happened?

TD: Well, u=you know—

GK: They put probes into his body.

RK: Well, I mean—

GK: - to take the pictures, they put—you know, they put the steel probes in there—

RK: To show the—

GK: - to show the direction of the bullets. And I know that he said that, "If anybody wanted to know—that they'd like to know about the pictures I took—that it—those probes left no doubt."

JG: Left no doubt for what?

RK: About the—

GK: Well, with what—what happened.

TD: The trajectory and [unintelligible].

RK: Where the bullets came from.

DM: And what was his understanding of what the tracks showed?

TD: Sure he testified to that.

GK: I'm sure he testified to that. I don't go into detail that much with him, because, you know—

RK: "This happened."

GK: He's just—

RK: They're just recollections of what we remember.

GK: Yeah—

[Crosstalk]

RK: [Crosstalk] about that.

TW: Well, lemme try a couple questions, then, to—So he accompanied the body from Andrews to Bethesda?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: And so he would have been there when the autopsy began?

GK: Well, yeah. Sure.

RK: No, he said he was there—where they were setting it up?

GK: Yeah.

TW: Okay.

TD: And when the body came in and they—they did the autopsy, he was supposed to—the one who was given that task by the Secret Service [unintelligible] that he would photograph and cover all events of the autopsy, because it was his job to record history. That's what his job was: was leave photographic history of the events. That's what he did.

And he spoke about it a great deal later, but at the time he was too broken up. You know, that the—the story of Jacqueline coming and following the body when it was delivered back, and he was there as they were putting the body in state, and he said Jackie came running in and she says, "Bob, Bob, what have they done?" And she just collapsed on his shoulder, and he was weep—he [unintelligible]—

GK: [Laughter]

TD: - because, you know, she said—that he did that, and then little John came running up and grabbed him by the leg. And he said he just, you know, could have—hardly bear the pain. It just tore him up.

DM: So he was there for the whole—the entire autopsy?

GK: Oh, well, sure.

[Crosstalk]

DM: The whole [unintelligible]—was he the only person taking photos?

GK: Well, that was always our understanding.

[Laughter]

TD: He said—

GK: That's what he told us.

RK: [Crosstalk] He said, you know, at the time, with the—that they did the initial autopsy, and the initial review of it—Dad said he was the only one taking pictures, and that he was the only one allowed to; that there were other people in there, some that he didn't know.

GK: Yeah.

RK: But he was the only one with a camera in there that night.

TD: And it angered him greatly when that guy came forward and said that he'd taken pictures and [unintelligible] that.

GK: No. [Unintellgible]

DM: Well—

TD: Well, but other people claimed to have taken pictures over time.

RK: Well, you know, there's other pictures and they—

JG: You're talking about Mr. Skinner?

TD: [Unintelligible]

TW: No.

DM: Stringer.

[Crosstalk]

TW: What kind of camera did Bob use? Do you know?

GK: Was it a—At that time was it Nikon or Hasselblad?

RK: He used two different types.

GK: Yeah. He used Nikon and Hasselblad—

RK: And he—I know he had—he'd normally use what was supplied by NPC, you know, the photographic center, and he used—he was using Nikons, but he was, you know, converting from Nikons. And he was also using a Bronica [crosstalk] format.

GK: Yeah, Bronica and Hasselblad [unintelligible].

RK: I know that they had Speed Graphics still in the office at the time, which were 4 by 5 format.

TW: So he had a—

RK: Normally, he would use mostly the 35 millimeter and the Bronica [unintelligible].

GK: But, you know, just to say—

BK: - he never told us what—

GK: - he never told us—

RK: - which camera which he used [unintelligible].

GK: - camera he used.

JG: You mean, during the autopsy?

RK: During the autopsy.

GK: Yeah.

TW: Did he—let's talk about the pictures he took at the autopsy, from the—we'll just focus on that subject. What became of those? In other words, he took the pictures. Did he develop them?

GK: That's all in question. Mm-hmm.

TW: Tell me what happened.

GK: Well, I recall that he said that it was the strangest thing that had have ever happened to him: that the Secret Service agent said, "Gimme the film." And so they took it, and he really didn't see that film ever again. But in the back of my mind, somehow I seem to remember that he said, "And I knew the guy, and I thought he trusted me." Now, is that, you know, just something that I'm pulling out, or is it something he really said? 'Cause, you know, a lot was going down then, and my main job was to make sure the he didn't collapse.

[Laughter]

TW: So lemme just see if I can fill in around that: he took pictures at the autopsy, but he had to give the film to a Secret Service agent?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Was that right at the autopsy?

GK: Right there in that room.

TD: And that's what he later told me. That he—he—my—my father gave me the Warren Commission Report when it came out. You gotta understand I was a very studious nerd kid who just was really into things, very much into history.—And he gave it to me, and he says, "I want you to read this and we'll talk about it."

And I read it, and didn't—it wasn't easy reading, and I took a long time to go through it. And then he and liked to discuss it. And one of the things I said to him many times over the years is that, "You took those pictures?" And he always said, "Yes, they took the film in the room," and he said, "and I never saw them again until the pictures surfaced in the hearings. And I was asked about those pictures." And this was in the late 70s.

And then the pictures started appearing in the public, and it was put on TV specials and everything since then. And when those pictures first came out, I saw them and I said, "So you wanna go down and see your pictures?" And Dad said, "No, I saw the pictures," and he said, "Those weren't the pictures." He said, "They've been altered."

And my father has always contended those pictures were altered. He said, "They were not taken—those were not the pictures as I took them;" they were—that "those were not the pictures as I took them." And he—he later said, just, you know—

RK: Yep.

TD: - in the last few years, he said, "I have since found out who developed them and where they were altered." And my father said—

GK: And that was it.

TD: - he just shook his head, and he wouldn't say anymore. But he said, "The pictures were altered. And I know who developed them, and I know who altered them."

DM: But he didn't go into who—who that person—

GK: No.

TD: My father would never do that, because that wasn't something that—the things you could share. There's things that you don't need to know because it puts you in a bad position.

TW: Lemme ask—

[Unintelligible]

TW: - two things: So your understanding is, when he talked to the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s, first, that he told them that he took photographs at the autopsy?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Did he tell them that—'and he told them that he had to give up the film, or—'

TD: [Crosstalk] to know what he—

GK: Well, now, that'd been our understanding, you have probably read the report, which we never got the privilege of reading, so—

RK: I had a different recollection of it.

GK: Yeah, he does.

RK: You know, but—

TW: Well, what's your recollection?

RK: I thought that I had remembered my father, you know, telling me later on that—after he took the pictures—that he was the one that processed the film, and that he was accompanied by some agents;—went in there and processed the film.

TW: The film that you're talking about is the film he took?

RK: The autopsy. Yeah. The autopsy.

TW: Okay.

RK: That's—that's why we—you know that—that's what I—what U remember, which is completely different.

GK: Yeah, it is completely different.

RK: On that note, Dad, I don't think remembered him saying, that—

GK: Even three out of four don't remember it that way, so—

RK: Yeah.

DM: Can I interject a question? If—after he took the photos, just to see if it ties in to what Terri's talking about—did he have possession of the film maybe until he—or did he say that? Did he have possession of the film , and so he went into a room, and a Secret Service agent or whoever was there while he was developing?

RK: That's—that's what—that's what I recollect.

DM: Or they took, saying—

RK: No, that he—that he had possession of it and it—

JG: Did your father ever say anything to you about photographs having been altered? Do you have any recollection of that?

RK: Yeah. I—I remember him saying that there were some of the pictures—that he took—that appeared as he took 'em. But then there were others that were, he said, "They weren't even altered very good."

GK: [Laughter] Yeah.

TD: That's what he always [crosstalk], that he always—

RK: But he—you know, he did n't—

GK: Well, see, he always—he said—I thought that when he went to the Warren Commission, or the Senate committee or whatever, there were four or five pictures, and that one of them was altered. And then when he went back for the hearing the second time, they asked him over again, and he said, "No." He said, "there's only one picture in this album at this point. So four are missing and this one has been so badly altered that it's beyond anything that I ever remembered,", you know, "was taken."

RK: Also, none of the pictures, not—the one that he said would be like "the whole story"—

TD: That's right.

GK: Missing.

RK: - Dad, he was saying that "it never appeared;" he said—

TD: He said it never appeared anywhere.

GK: It never appeared anywhere, and that one picture would tell anybody that wanted to know—

RK: - and with—with the probe, that it—

GK: - that it—it left nothing un—

[Crosstalk]

TW: Bob, you mentioned that this is a picture with probes—

RK: Mm-hmm.

TW: - in the wounds, that, when inserted—

RK: Inserted—

TD: Mm-hmm.

JG: You know whether the probes were inserted in the head, or in the body?

RK: In both.

GK: Mm-hmm. But, you know—

JG: And did he describe for you the wounds that he saw?

GK: Mm-hmm.

JG: How did he describe them?

GK: He told me that his whole top of his head was just all gone. He said his brains were just about exposed.

RK: Well, were blown out.

GK: Yeah.

RK: Were blown [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah.

JG: Did he describe how much of the head—what—or how much of the skull was missing or had been damaged?

GK: No, he just said just about the whole top was gone. [unintellible].

DM: Did he ever point to his head or anything to show what area? Front or back or—

RK: No. He didn't point to his head, but he said that, you know, that kinda the whole back section was exposed.

GK: Yeah, the back.

RK: - that the whole back section was exposed.

GK: Yeah. The back.

RK: He said when he first saw it he couldn't believe it.

GK: Yeah.

RK: And, you know, they started to move it, you know, during the autopsy and all of that, and got pictures, right?

JG: What do you mean, "they started to move it?"

GK: Handled [crosstalk]—

RK: Well, just—

JG: You mean, moved the head around?

RK: - moved the head, yeah, so they could see it there.

TW: Lemme ask you to back up, as well [crosstalk]. I think these—this past couple of things you gotta—when he said—said that the photos that he saw in the late 1970s had been altered—or were not the same, or something—when he said they were altered, did he—and what—did he ever say in what way they were altered? How did he characterize that?

RK: Like did he—

GK: I don't think so—

TD: Not to me [crosstalk].

GK: - 'cause he was just a man who didn't go into detail because—

TW: So he didn't say—

GK: - he didn't need to.

TW: - in what they were—in what that—what way they were altered? Did he suggest that—

RK: He did a little bit.

TW: I'm sorry?

RK: He did a little bit to me, okay? 'Cause I worked with him his last 10 years or something like that—

GK: Yeah.

RK: - and he—we talked about different stuff.

TW: What—what did your father say?

RK: And, you know, he said, you know, "That's not the right room, there," meaning that that's not what the room looked like—in some of the pictures, that they were in a—they were published, and he said, "The room didn't look like this."

TW: The background, the table, for example, and the [crosstalk]—

RK: Yeah. Background, and then he said that there wasn't that much head showing, you know.

TW: I'm sorry, what do you mean? That [crosstalk] much—did he say—

RK: Not as, not as much head showing, meaning that someone had drawn in hair, covering up the wound.

JG: Where was the wound covered? You said—

RK: The top back, more of the top back in the picture, that we were looking at then.

TW: So [crosstalk]—

RK: He didn't point, but he said that they put more hair than was really there.

JG: So the idea would be that there was——there was a hole that was—

RK: Right—

JG: - you said, "top back"—

RK: Larger.

JG: - and that the idea is that somehow it was drawn over this hole? Or that there were —while the photographs would have shown a hole, the altered photographs showed skeleton and hair that had moved?

RK: I think so. Yes, that [unintelligible]

TW: So I'm gonna just continue. Some of this is gonna sound like we ask the same question but—

[Laughter]

TW: - we're just trying to see if we can polish something, just as much information as we can. You would say, then, that the wounds that were shown—I mean—I don't wanna put words in your mouth but—the wounds that he saw in the photographs in the late 1970s—

RK: Did not truly represent what he observed.

TW: Did not represent what he observed?

GK: That's right.

RK: Yeah.

TD: Or had taken pictures of, and he contended that all along.

RK: Mm-hmm.

GK: And you've got to remember this is a man who noticed every detail.

RK: He didn't talk—he didn't wanna talk about it very much—

GK: No.

RK: - in the beginning.

GK: And he measured and calculated every little—

TW: Lemme ask you this question—and you sorta said this, but again, I'm just trying to be precise as we can—the photographs that he saw in the late 1970s: do you recall whether he had a clear idea that those were his photographs that had been altered, or were they someone else's photographs altogether?

GK: No, that he wouldn't say that they were somebody else's. He just said they had been altered.

TW: But those photographs—

GK: Severely, severely altered.

TW: - those photographs did not accurately portray what he had photographed?

GK: That's right.

TD: Or what had been shown—

RK: Mm-hmm.

TD: - in the autopsy.

TW: And what he'd seen—

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: - in the autopsy.

DH: I have a follow-on question: how many times did he meet in person with these investigators in the '70s, did you say? Twice? Did I hear you correctly?

GK: Well, there was that meeting of—in '78. And then we seem to think that it was probably in '88 that he met again with somebody.

TW: So in '88?

DH: For a second time?

TW: Ten years later?

GK: That's what I—I feel, okay?

TD: It was in the 80s. It was just [crosstalk] the photographs.

GK: It was in the 80s, you know, and—'cause I remember he said to me, he said, "You know, honey? I just called up and asked for a transcription of what I said, and you know what they said to me? They said, 'We've never heard of a Robert Knudsen.' There was 'no such person,' and 'we don't have any testimony.' "

And I had been to a meeting and [laughter] came home and I think you talked to him.

TD: We'd read it, and I talked about the Warren Report and a lot of other things. And he contended in this 1988 meeting—'cause we all remember he had to go down and testify somewhere—

GK: Yeah.

TD: I don't remember where he testified—he just was told to appear and he testified, and he said, "It's really strange, but they struck all of my testimony and nobody seems to know whether I was even there."

RK: Without an explanation.

GK: And the other thing is, that at that time he said to them—he told me he had said to them, "Well, four pictures are missing completely, and this one is so badly altered that it tells nothing."

TW: Lemme—that's referring to the 19—late 1970s?

GK: No, that's the—

TW: Or is it 1980—

GK: Yeah.

TW: - later in the '80s?

GK: Yeah.

TW: Any idea of when that point—two points—I mean, you could—

GK: No.

TW: - get any closer to that?

GK: Not with me, but I sort of, you know, at that point, I sort of relate everything to the time of his death.

TW: Mm-hmm.

GK: And it seemed to me that it was, like, within six months.

TD: Within a year, I'm pretty sure.

GK: Yeah, you know—

TW: So that would be—

GK: - and he—his—

TW: - if we went back to that earlier report, that would be—

GK: You know, in '88, because his recorded time of death is January 27th of '89.

TW: So, that—in '88 or '89?

GK: No, not '89.

[Laughter]

TW: When you said six months, you know, six months, wasn't—

'BK: [Crosstalk]

GK: Yeah.

TW: Okay. In 1988, was—well, say 1988—that would not be the same agency that he talked to in the late 1970s—

BK: No.

TW: - which was with the House Select Committee on Assassinations?

GK: No. No.

TW: Any idea of what agency that was—that he talked to in the late 1980s?

JG: Was it Congress or Justice Department?

GK: I have no idea.

TW: Is it possible it was a private researcher?

TD: No. It was the government. [crosstalk]

GK: Oh, no. He would never go to a private researcher.

TD: He wouldn't talk to private researchers or press over any of the controversial things that surfaced surrounding his job. Because there was a controversy over the film he'd taken of Kennedy, and he always refused, out of respect to the family, to ever discuss it, 'cause he was the only who ever saw the film completed.

GK: Well, that's [crosstalk] in that——that's—

TD: He shot it and he saw it—yeah. But he didn't testify to anybody or talk to reporters of any kind.

GK: Yeah.

RK: No. He wouldn't do anything [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah.

TW: So your recollection is very firm, then, that in the late 1980s—1988, let's say—that he talked to some government agency?

GK: Yeah.

TW: Do you recall whether he received any correspondence about that, or whether [crosstalk]—

GK: He—he—he—may have, but I've searched through everything and I can't find anything—

TD: You know, but—

GK: And it could've been that just somebody phoned him and said, "Come down."

TW: Okay, well, you—

GK: But, you know, unfortunately, that disturbed him greatly.

TD: Yeah, and he was really [crosstalk] over it.—

GK: I really—and he really was—

RK: He didn't—he didn't wanna go.

GK: Yeah.

RK: And they said that "you have to come down."

GK: Yeah.

RK: I was thinking it was up on Capitol Hill.

TD: That's what I thought, too. And then he got really angry when he came home. He said, "There wasn't any [unintelligible]"—

GK: Yeah.

TD: - because he [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah.

JG: Was there a diary or a calendar from 1988 that would include that?

RK: There'd be no [unintelligible].

GK: No. I—well, I looked but there was no indication, which—I wasn't able.

TW: Any clue you could give us that would help us track down who this might be?

RK: [Unintelligible]

GK: Oh, I wish.

TD: I was sure that Congress knew. I really was sure that Congress had a special committee.

GK: Somehow, it probably—

TD: It was Capitol Hill that he had to go—

GK: - it probably was, because I know I talked later with a legislative assistant who goes to our church, and asked him if he could look into it for me and get me a copy of the testimony. And he never answered back. You know, he was interested to hear, but he never answered back, and I just thought, "Well, why [unintelligible]?"

TW: Does that person still attend your church?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Are you still in reasonably—in contact with that person?

GK: Yeah. [Laughter]

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: What we might wanna do here, when we wrap up, is I'm gonna wanna ask you for that person's name.

GK: No.

TW: No?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Could we ask you to—whether it'd be uncomfortable for you, we ask you to call them one more time, and see what the—if they recall what it was that he had to talk to, or—

GK: Hmm . . . you know, I could, you know, but—

TW: - because—

RK: - I don't know that it would really serve a purpose.

TW: - well, I think the purpose could be—I mean, I see what you're saying. I mean, if this person didn't know anything then and couldn't help you, unlikely that they could be of help now. But we're—I think, we're a little bit stumped here. We're not aware of what—who would've talked to him in 1988. We don't what that is. And for us to go find records of that, I think, for your information, as well as for ours, we need a—we need a—we need a clue.

GK: Well, you know, really and truly, I have no idea. I don't know that he said specifically. You know, he was just the type that—it's not that we weren't close; it was just his midwestern style to keep it [crosstalk]—

TW: Lemme ask—lemme back up here and make sure that I'm clear on a distinction that I might have missed, but I just wanna—I wanna make it clear. And again, this is—if it seems like I'm going over something you said, again, it's just I wanna make sure that I didn't gloss over something.

He talked to Congressional researchers in the late 1970s. And then, again, he talked to perhaps someone on Capitol Hill in 1988 or some time like that. And you indicated that when he talked to these people, when he said that the photographs were altered—

GK: Well, [crosstalk]—

TW: - we're talking about the 1977 or the—the late 1970—

GK: The '78 hearing. But in '88 he said that four of the pictures were missing, and the one that was there, was [unintelligible].

TW: So he was shown photographs again in—in circa 1988?

GK: Yeah.

RK: Mm-hmm.

TW: And at that time he said a number of the photos—the photographic collection he was shown was incomplete?

RK/GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Okay. So again, I'm just recapping here: 1977, he said photos had been altered—'78, I'm sorry. And then in 1988, perhaps, that he was shown an incomplete collection of photographs?

GK: Mm-hmm. You now, he said he—

BK: [Crosstalk]

GK: - you know, at this point, he said, "I don't know why I'm going down there. I guess 'cause I have to." But he said, you know, "They could have found out the truth" around the original untouched pictures, and he said, you know, "This is a waste of my time."

RK: Mm-hmm. When he went there, what he said—he didn't go through it; everything he said but—wey were talking, and he said that he'd say something, that whoever it was would contradict him and tell him that—

GK: Yeah.

RK: - that's not what happened.

DH: The first—of was it the second?—

RK: No, this is the—this is in the 1980s. He said that it was ridiculous for him to even go down there, because he'd say one thing, they'd say, "Well, that's not what happened."

TD: And they'd say, "Now, isn't it true that it's really," and he said the whole thing—He was very, very upset. My father, in the late years, just before he died, had a nervous tick—that when he got upset, the whole side of his face would—

GK: Twitch.

TD: - twitch, and his eye would shut, and he [unintelligible]. He came home and he just was so agitated, it went a week. I mean, he just was really agitated after that hearing.

DH: I had one or two questions about him and something that's in the earlier transcript—

RK: Mm-hmm.

DH: - which you touched on earlier. You said he asked for it, but when was the time that he asked for it? Was it—I'll let you [crosstalk].

GK: Well, the first time he asked for it, also, and they said, "Well, we'll get it to ya." It was always "we'll get it to ya."

DH: Okay.

TW: Thank you. You showed us a piece of paper, which appears to be a letter from the Select Committee on Assassinations, dated November 16th, 1978, that says, "Enclosed for your review is a copy of the transcript of your sworn statement voluntarily given to Committee staff counsel Donald A. Curry." There was nothing with this letter?

GK: Well, there was, and he returned it. I—no. I don't know. They wouldn't, and they could never [crosstalk]—

TD: They claimed there was nothing and that's what made him wanna—

GK: That's right. There was nothing. That's right: there was nothing.

RK: And he didn't get it, and he called them up again.

TD: And called and asked for it again, and he got no response.

DM: But he saw the draft, is that right? Did he see the draft and then—

GK: Well, [crosstalk]—

TD: It's our recollection he never saw anything.

DM: - but never got a final draft.

RK: It was our recollection that he didn't get anything, because—

TD: He kept asking.

RK: - he got—he got this letter with a packet of, you know, some other things that were in it. But there was no testimony in it.

GK: Yeah.

TD: Of his, you know?

RK: But not of his.

GK: Not of his. So, you know, he never really got to see the copy of his testimony.

TD: Or review it.

GK: Or review it.

RK: Well, he might—might have not wanted [crosstalk]—a final copy—

DM: He didn't—didn't get—

GK: - the final copy that he had drafted.

TW: Yeah, cause it points out here, it says, you know, when—once he signs and sends it back—

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: - "upon our receipt of the signed transcript, we'll immediately provide you with a copy for your personal retention." So any copy that he might have—well, lemme—

GK: Might have received, and they [crosstalk]—

TW: - might have received, and was signed and sent back—and then nothing ever came in return?

GK: No.

TW: So he never got—

GK: No.

TW: - to retain possession?

DH: Did he ask for his late '70s transcript when he went the second time, to the second body? Or are your recollections of him asking for it from the earlier period?

GK: Well, from both—that he asked and never received.

RK: But what we're talking about now is the initial one. And he never received the final copy.

TD: And he would never ask to review it [unintelligible] 'cause my dad a memory, and he would never—and he would never go back and then review his testimony to freshen his memory 'cause he doesn't work that way. He never did. I mean, he knows, and what he knows, he remembers.

GK: Knows.

[Laughter]

TD: And it—

[End of Reel 1, Side 1]

---

REEL 1, SIDE 2

Speakers:

GK = Gloria Knudsen, widow of Robert Knudsen
TD = Terri Dalton (nee Knudsen), daughter
RK = Bob Knudsen, son
DH = Douglas Horne, ARRB Chief Analyst
JG = Jeremy Gunn, ARRB General Counsel
TM = Tim Wray, ARRB Chief Analyst
TM = David Montague, ARRB Senior Investigator

DH: Guess what I'm trying to pin down one—your recollection of him not being able to locate his transcript comes from the late '70s, then?

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: That's correct.

DH: And his frustration, from the late '70s, rather than 10 years later?

TD: [Unintelligible]

GK: Well, [crosstalk]—

TD: That one he never got a transcript, either.

GK: No.

RK: No, but I don't know that he asked for it, you know, the second—I know that the main—main one he was to get first and none had, you know—

GK: And then to say that there was never such a person: that could rattle ya, you know, when you're trying to do what your government asks and to cooperate and then—

TW: So, as far as you recollect, the first—the 1978 deposition—he never commented on whether a—a printed version of the transcript was complete, or it was accurate, or anything like that? you don't recall?

GK: I honestly don't recall whether he did really ever receive it, you know? It says that he—it was enclosed, but I don't honestly think he ever really got his—there, you know.

RK: Not that we can—

TD: He would never—

GK: Not that we can remember.

RK: - not that we can remember.

TD: Because he was always agitated that he never got the final draft.

TW: Never read the final draft?

RK: No.

JG: Well, just so—just so we're clear, he never received any draft at all? Or he—

TD: He never got it.

JG: - never received the final draft?

TD: The final—we know he didn't.

GK: Yeah. The final, we know that he didn't.

TW: Lemme—lemme go back to—

GK: And then, you know, he would—he would—if he got it, which I know—

TD: He didn't show it to us.

GK: - he didn't show it to us, because he would feel that he would be going against the secrecy of it.

JG: Mm-hmm. Did he testify to the Warren Commission?

GK: Mm-hmm. Didn't he?

TD: I thought—

GK: Yeah.

RK: Yeah, he did testify.

TD: - that he did. He was called, but that his testimony never appeared anywhere, either.

JG: Did he testify to the Warren Commission? [Speaking to Doug Horne]

DH: I'm not aware of that at all.

TD: He sure did.

RK: I know he was—he was down at the Warren Commission [crosstalk].

TD: He was down there, and so whether he did official testimony, I [unintelligible]. But I do know that he discussed the Warren Commission findings a lot.

TW: Let me ask you about the—

JG: [Crosstalk] check it the Warren Commission [unintelligible]?

TW: Lemme ask you about the Warren Commission: did he ever—when you say, you "discussed it with him a lot," tell us what he said.

TD: He asked me to read it because it—he wanted—he wanted to talk to me about it. Afterwards, he said, "So what do you think? Did Oswald really do it?" So, "It looks pretty complete to me," and that type-thing. And then he started asking me questions: "Well, what did you think about the autopsy findings? What did you think about" this, and "what did you think about" that, too? "Did it all make sense to you?" And he just kept asking a lotta questions, and then he'd just nod his head.

GK: Mm-hmm.

TD: Okay? And, you know, he was digesting, but he was also asking me particular questions about, you know, "You really think that makes sense? Do you really think that that's what happened? Does that jibe with what makes sense to you?" And he—he would—he wouldn't have asked those questions—knowing my father—he wouldn't have asked them if he didn't have a problem with 'em. And just the way—my father had a way of when he didn't agree with something, he wouldn't outright say it. He'd just go—

GK: Mm-hmm.

TD: - and he'd nod his head like that, and he'd just kinda look down, and he'd pick up his pipe. And that was his way of saying, "bull."

[Laughter]

GK: If what—if you said, "They were saying"—

TD: He was very leading with the questions.

GK: - that it's what he didn't say that was important.

TD: Right. My father had mannerisms that—you knew what he was thinking.

DM: Did he ever go into detail, though, in terms of just, "that's what I think?"

TD: He said that the Report showed what it was supposed to show.

[Laughter]

TD: And that's all he said, though.

JG: Didn't he—did he ever say that he thought that Oswald didn't do it?

TD: He didn't go into Oswald because he didn't know about Oswald. All he said is that the Report "showed what it was supposed to show," and he didn't [unintelligible].

JG: How—do you know if, other than to yourselves and to—and to any testimony he gave to Commissions or anything, did he ever talk to anybody else about this?

RK: No.

TD: [Unintelligible] used to not [unintelligible]/

RK: No. He just—he wouldn't. A lot of people asked him about it. I mean, even at the family gatherings, if we were sitting around by the lake, said, "C'mon, you can tell us, now;" you know, "tell us," you know, "what—tell us more" whether it was something like that. And he'd just smile.

TD: Yeah. [Unintelligible]

RK: And he—you know, we—we briefly talked, you know, when—when I had that book, one of the first books to get published, you know, we'd talk about what it said.

JG: Which—do you know which book it was?

RK: I don't know. I remember looking at the pictures, I think. Lots of pictures. [Laughter] I—I honestly—

GK: He was not a reader.

RK: No, I didn't read. I looked at pictures.

[Laughter]

TD: I read the books and I'd be the one who talked to him about it. And he just was never happy with [unintelligible].

JG: When—when—the book, when you were looking at the pictures, what—is that the 1960s, '70s, '80s?

RK: No, that would be from earlier.

JG: ASnd these were pictures of the autopsy—

RK: Mm-hmm.

JG: - photographs?

TD: Mm-hmm. He had bought one of those.

RK: Because—

DM: Do you remember what it's called?

JG: Was it "Best Evidence?"

TD: I don't remember the title; I just remember the black-and-white cover. And see, I read the—I read a lotta the books. I—I had read lots of the books because my dad pointed me in directions, and I was always looking for anybody to corroborate the kind of stuff that he would be asking, you know, and—

JG: But, in one sense, you probably were saying that what you're saying is very different from what the United States government has said for a long time, and presumably, it's very important. Your father knew the Kennedys and was in the White House. Why didn't he say something to somebody?

TD: He wouldn't discuss [crosstalk].

GK: You have to remember that he was a Navy man, and he had Top Secret clearance. And he walked and lived that.

TD: Til the term under Ford, he worked at the White House and he stayed because he never opened his mouth.

RK: Yeah. He—I guess it's just like any other job, and Dad took things seriously. You have to—have to weigh what can be changed. Is it worth going into a lot of problems or trouble—you know, is it worth stirring the pot over something that—isn't gonna make that much difference what you say, versus—

TD: That's right, he always—

RK: - versus what—

TD: - he said [unintelligible].

RK: - what other people say.

DM: Did anybody ever ask him not to say anything about what he saw?

RK: It's—I don't know. It—it's hard to say.

TD: He never overtly said that to me, though. He just—he was closed-mouthed about everything.

GK: It's just a way of life, you know? It was a way of life.

RK: Just, "why say" - [crosstalk]—

GK: You don't go around blabbing.

RK: Right, right.

JG: But this—but this also is something that's pretty important. I mean, it's not just another issue. It's—

RK: He goes uh-huh.

GK: Well, that's absolutely correct, but, you know—

TD: just one person.

GK: - what he—

RK: But, what if it doesn't—"if you have all the evidence and you present it, it all—it all depends on how things are presented. It's the way things are—are believed," or something like that. And "If you have a lot of people saying one thing, and you don't have anything in possession to [unintelligible] to repudiate what's being said, it's not worth saying anything else."

DM: I know the one thing—kinda just touching on what Gloria and I talked about before, on the phone—you—you had mentioned that Bob, at some point, was afraid or was not willing to talk a lot about things, because of his belief that things were happening?

GK: Mm-hmm.

DM: You think, can you elaborate a little bit more on that? What did he say about that?

GK: Well, just that, you know, a lot of people are dying unnecessarily, and "I don't wanna be the next one." [Laughter]

RK: He said there were some "strange things going on" and that—

GK: Yeah.

DM: Did he say anything about that in particular, or about the "strange things?"—

RK: - he just said there was a lotta "strange things going on," and there's no need to say anything else.

GK: Yeah.

TD: Yeah.

RK: And that it wouldn't—

DM: Was this during the '70s, or during—

RK: I think this was when some of those reporters were coming up asking him, there'd been a lotta commotion—

GK: If he would—yeah.

RK: 'cause he was always getting hounded by reporters after a book was written. What was it, in '85, telling about a secret underground movie that was taken of the Kennedys, that Robert Knudsen had taken, that showed Kennedy being [unintelligible], you know, whatever, and then foretelling his own death, you know, had a premonition the he was gonna die.

Then I know ABC News tried to get in touch with Dad because he knew a lotta reporters and so—he came—they said, you know, "We wanna talk to him about this because he took that movie." And he wouldn't say anything. And, you know, there were quotes in the paper that Robert Knudsen said this and that, and we know that they were—they weren't true. And so instead of Dad going and saying, "Listen, I didn't say" this or anything like that," he was just, you know, "Why—why stir the pot? He said, "Let"—he said, "I'll just," you know, "let the people believe what they want," and said, "I know what—what the movie was about." And I didn't say anything about it.

GK: And you remembered the extremes they would go to.

RK: I know. Yeah. They tried to—I mean, they'd try and do different things to find out. But that's just an example of what I was saying: that Dad, you know, he said, you know, "There's no sense in saying anything else."

TW: Lemme ask you this about the concern for his safety: would you say that, to the extent that he expressed that—that concern, would you say that's based on any knowledge that he had that he was actually in danger? Or was it—I didn't realize it was a difficult distinction, but you'll understand why I'm asking this question—or was it based on either news reports, or accounts in books, or you know, sort of a popular perception that's grown up around the Kennedy assassination: people are being bumped off—but it has nothing to with the assassination? Is it—in other words, did he have sort of an independent knowledge of this, or was it just sorta things that he'd read and heard about it—what other people had speculated?

TD: He didn't-—he never had any credence in anything the press ever recorded. My father had no respect for the press corps, because—

RK: The modern-day press corps.

TD: - the modern-day press corps, because he said that none of the events he ever went to ever sounded like the same event he'd been at. You know, he'd go to state dinners, he'd go to anything, and he said, "The reporters write want they want to write, and none of it has a whole lotta truth to it." So it was never because of anything that was in the press or books. He traveled with the press corps too much to listen to any of them.

And it never had anything to do with that. He just had the feeling—and he always did about all the things that—everything, as well as the President—that just—say that, "You don't talk about things because it's just—it's not a smart thing to do."

GK: And he didn't. And, you know, I would go to events at the White House and read about it the next day, and think, "Oh, that must have been somewhere else," you know—even myself, so [crosstalk]—

TW: Lemme ask a—try one other question on something else entirely: when he stayed home, that time of the trip to Texas, did he have a patch or any kind of dressing on his eye?

GK: No.

TW: It was just he—he just got injured?

GK: It just, you know, it's like anything that goes in your eye: you're just cautious about infection.

TD: Infection. Of course, when he first came from the hospital, but that was before [unintelligible]. Did he come home with a patch the first—when he first got a it treated?

GK: They just put some stuff on it.

TD: But I remember that he just was very [unintelligible]—

GK: Well—

TD: - healing, and he was sitting around without patches, you know, when it happened.

GK: Yeah.

TW: Lemme—

TD: I was really little.

TW: - back on this—back on this issue of the Warren Commission and, you know, kinda taking everything in context, here—I'm trying to draw it together, given what you said—would you think it would be—Bob—your father's view that the Warren Commission does not—did not accurate—the Warren Commission report did not accurately represent what happened? Do you think that's what he thought?

GK: Yeah.

RK: Represent what he—what he knew.

TD: The part he knew about.

RK: The part that he knew didn't represent the—the Warren Commission did not, you know, as far as represent what he knew—in any accuracy, as to what he knew [crosstalk]—

TW: And the parts that he knew about were—

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: The autopsy photos.

TW: The autopsy and the autopsy photos?

RK: Yeah.

GK: Now, you know, probably he may have—you know, be able to talk about a secret [unintelligible]—

TD: But he often talked to me about [crosstalk] you know, that bullet trajectory thing. [unintelligible] you know, "What do you think about that?"

GK: Yeah.

TW: When you say the "bullet trajectory thing," what—what—you know, you said he asked you leading questions. What—what is your impression of what he was thinking as he was asking [outdoors noise] questions?

TD: It didn't reflect what he saw at the autopsy. What was reported was not what he saw.

JG: And did he give you any further leads as to what he thought had happened, or why he didn't—

TD: No, he left that up to us to figure out, but—

GK: He just didn't—

TD: My Dad didn't share [unintelligible].

TW: Lemme ask you this, and this is asking you to remember something's that's kinda "keepin' it real"—

[Laughter]

TW: - when he's talking about the trajectory, was he—President Kennedy had two apparent wounds: he had a wound to his head, he had a wound on his back that—some speculation here. you know—that it came out his throat. When he was talking about the trajectory with you, was he talking about the wound to the head? Or the wound to the back?

TD: Not specific to just the wound, but if I thought that there were any—that—that there were—but, "Did you really think it was a single gunman? Do you really think it came from that direction?" And, "Do you really think that what they said there makes sense? That the bullet traveled these paths?"

TW: Did he ever say anything that indicated that—in his conversations with his friends in the Secret Service or other members of the White House staff—that they had perhaps given him some indication that would lead him in that direction?

GK/RK: No.

TD: They weren't in the room. He always referred back to what he saw—

RK: Mm-hmm.

TD: - in that room in Bethesda Hospital.

GK: He wouldn't—he wouldn't—wouldn't—"Bob, don't you think that this is accurate?" But he would never bank vault with what somebody else said—

TD: Never.

GK: I mean, nobody.

TD: He was his own man?

RK: Now, he listened—

GK: He was his own—

RK: He'd listen—

GK: He'd listen.

RK: - to the pertinent information and, you know, react accordingly on it, but would not—you know, if somebody told him that, you know, about an event, he wouldn't go and quote "this is what happened at an event," based on someone else's, you know, whatever—nothing like that. He—he wouldn't do—you know, he'd—he'd say, "Well, I really don't know about it."

TD: "I wasn't there."

GK: And he was a man of God. And he lived that, that way.

RK: Mm-hmm.

TD: Did he read a lot? You said that you didn, and that you didn't. Was he a—would you say that he read a lot after—

GK: He used to be. Yeah, he was an avid reader.

TD: When you met him—

RK: He used to—

TD: - but not—

GK: Yeah, he used to.

TD: - but not when he used to—work at the White House. He never read anything.

GK: Yeah.

TW: Do you recall whether—he read anything about the assassination, or what—maybe it was just he—invited you to read the Warren Commission Report. Do you know whether he read it himself?

TD: To the best of my knowledge, he didn't read the [crosstalk].

GK: That's right.

TW: Do you know whether he read any other books related to the assassination?

GK: No.

TD: He wasn't interested in reading—

RK: Nothing, no. I know—I know that he didn't.

TD: I know he didn't. He wasn't interested in what anybody else had to say, because he felt like—he knew what he needed to know. He just wanted to [crosstalk]

RK: Yeah, 'cause when we had that one book, that we were—you know, we'd talk about the pictures, and he said, "You know, these people don't know what they're talking about."

TD: —[Unintelligible]—

RK: "Cause they weren't there. They're just" [crosstalk]—

TW: 1988 was the 25th anniversary after the assassination, and there were a number of television specials and documentaries and so forth that recalled that. Do you recall whether ever he ever saw any of those, and if—when—did he—you remember anything like him sitting in front of the television and watching it and kinda remarking on something that he's seeing there, or—

TD: He watched them but he never remarked. He'd get up and he'd—

GK: Well, you know, you know-once he remarked to me about Ruby. You know, beyond that....

TW: What—what did he say?

GK: Well, that he was. . . hmm.

TD: [Laughter] Never mind.

TW: [Crosstalk].

[Laughter]

TD: He kinda knew all the people—

GK: Yeah.

TD: - [unintelligible] people that needed to be known type-thing, okay?

GK: That was your thought. Yeah.

DM: He didn't elaborate to you? I know you—believe—your mother told me you had a very close relationship with—

RK: - Yeah.

DM: - with your father. How does—he didn't—

RK: You know, we'd do—we'd—you know, we still do—did a otta work for all the—for the Kennedys.

DM: Photography work?

RK: Photography work.

DM: Okay.

TD: For the Johnsons.

RK: For the Kennedys, and for the Johnsons, and—

DM: This was after he retired?

RK: Mm-hmm.

DM: Okay. And how long ago did he retire?

RK: I don't—from the White House?

DM: Right. Before you—'cause you said he started a photography business, right? [crosstalk]

RK: Back in '72—

GK: Yeah.

RK: - is when he—

DM: '72?

RK: Yeah, when—after the first six months of, I believe it was, of President Ford.

DM: Okay.

RK: Right after the—

TD: [Crosstalk]

GK: The beginning of—

TD: It was exactly at the beginning of [crosstalk]—

RK: [Crosstalk] it must have been—

JG: Would've been '75.

GK: - he took pictures of Ford's swearing-in, and [unintelligible].

RK: 75.

TD: [Unintelligible]

TW: Lemme—I wanna show you something: does this appear to be his—his signature?

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: Mm-hmm.

GK: Yep.

TD: It's been printed too, at the bottom, [unintellgible]

GK: Yep. That's his [unintelligible].

TW: And what I'm showing you is the affirmation that he's—that he apparently signed, that is related to his testimony to the House Select Committee. This is an enclosure—in other words, the letter that you received said, "sign the letter—sign on the last page." This—

GK: Yeah.

TW: - page 54 is the last page.

GK: [Unintelligible]

TW: So—and this is the original document.

TD: [Unintelligible]

GK: Mm-hmm.

TW: So by your saying that this appears to be the authentic signature and his authentic printing, of—it would lead one to conclude then, that—that he did in fact receive a draft from this—

GK: [Unintelligible] looks like [unintellgibile]

TW: - then he signed, and perhaps he had to make some corrections in the text and return it, and then never got from them the—a corrected—or any copy—for his own retention.

GK: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

TD: That's him, so it was his printing. If you look at the—

GK: Eu see the last part of that signature?

DM: Do you have an example of his handwriting?

TD: Yeah, but it's handwriting I saaw in his pictures, and it—you'll see a block printing. It looks exactly—

GK: Wait, this [Unintelligible] pictures.

TD: Okay, on the pictures—

RK: [Crosstalk]

TD: - of the body laying in state—

GK: Oh yeah.

RK: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

TD: - look at those little yellow [unintelligible] pullovers, and look at the "s," especially at—right there: that picture, you know, right there: look at the "s," look at the "v." That's my Dad's printing.

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: I wouldn't—I wouldn't—I wouldn't doubt that—

GK: I always thought he did a little [crosstalk]—

RK: Yeah, like I do with the—the "d." Yeah.

TD: But that's just a printing.

DM: I know I wouldn't make a photocopy of any of the other things on there for—to have a sample of hit handwriting?

GK: Oh.

DM: Any of the—the notes on the pictures?

GK: Yeah.

DM: Is that okay?

RK: Sure. You can make photocopies of that, sure.

TW: Doug has a couple more questions.

DH: When he recounted the all—the different agents taking the pictures at the autopsy—I'd just like to revisit—I believe I heard you say that he was there when they set up. Is that correct?

GK: Mm-hmm.

DH: Did he ever discuss whether he was there all night, or when he left, or how long he was there? How many hours?

GK: Oh, no. He didn't, because really, the only thing that we heard from him in three days is, "You will be allowed to come to the White House to view the body."

DH: That's when he called you and told you that—

TD: And the story about Jackie.

GK: And the story about Jackie, you know, but that's about—you know, it was very limited.

TD: Did he ever—lemme—lemme say something: following the autopsy, some morticians were brought to Bethesda Hospital, and they helped prepare the President for burial. Did he ever indicate whether he took any photographs following the autopsy, either during the preparation of the body, or once it had been replaced back in the casket, before the casket was closed? In other words, did he take any pictures at Bethesda that were not actually sorta the medical autopsy?

GK: Well, I can't honestly say. But, you know, knowing that they record everything, and knowing that he had Top Secret, and that the Secret Service had faith in him, that if it was done, it would be done by him. But, you know, he was gone for three days, you know. [Laughter]

RK: Yeah. I woulda thought that they would've taken pictures [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah.

TD: He didn't talk about it.

GK: No, he never talked about it. But he wouldn't, you know.

It's just—he has done so many things in his life, and I can remember him coming home one day, and this was—he was still in the Navy working at the Secretary of Navy's Office—and he said, "Wow, I really took some special pictures today." And he said, "Did you know that the Navy developed the Salk vaccine for polio?" And he didn't say "Salk vaccine;" he said, "The Navy developed a vaccine that would stop polio." And he said, "And I got to go over there and see the Navy turning the records and everything over to this doctor," who was going to finish—because the government isn't allowed to follow through or something, you know, be the claimant of what they did. And, you know, and he just said, you know, they did something with the blood of monkeys. And, you know, and then he stopped and that was it.

TD: Well, then another thing that showed Dad—the way about him—is that story that I know was told to my Mom [unintelligible]—

GK: Mm-hmm.

TD: - a story about Dad and the Cuban missiles.

GK: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

TD: Or, no, it was [unintelligible]—

GK: Yeah, it wasn't—the Korean—

TD: Yep, it was the ship.—The missing ship.

GK: Yeah. He was—my husband was in the office at the time that we were getting ready to rescue the Korean people of—over, you know, in Korea somewhere.

DH: Was this—what—

TD: A ship [Unintelligible].

GK: And, but anyway, at a security meeting they were talking about doing something, and he said, "Well, Mr. President, I was over there." And he said that, "I really wouldn't do that and endanger all those innocent people." And so I guess they all agreed it, and whatever he said—

TD: I [unintelligible] remember he told me that they all [unintelligible].

GK: - yeah, that was [unintelligible]. Yeah. And, so they listened to what he had to say, and, you know, heeded it [unintelligible], you know not to go in and—

TD: There was a ship missing, you know, and he had told them there was pirates over there, too. I don't think—

TW: Well, let's ask about it all some other time.

GK: Yeah, you know.

TD: - it was before that. It was—there was a ship missing, and "don't overreact because there's piracy back there."

GK: Yeah, so.

TD: And they listened to it, and it turned out that's—that's what had happened to the ship.

GK: Yeah.

DM: Can I ask a quick question here, you know, just to tie it into Doug's line of questions about the autopsy photos and so forth. But this is for my own clarification: my understanding was that during that time period, around the '60s, that the general press was basically interested in capturing photos of the President, and that the White House people, that would take photos for the White House, that they were really not only interested in taking pictures of the President, but also taking pictures from the perspective of things that the—that the President and the First Family would be interested in—for their own personal—not just political pictures—but for their own personal use—

GK: Mm-hmm.

RK: Yeah.

DM: - within the White House.

RK: And that's the White House—the White House staff, and the White House photographers had—their job, not to just take 'em of the President alone, but of the events and situations that went on in and around the White House, you know, that—it involved special parties and things like that. So, whether it was decorating the White House for Christmas, or taking family portraits, or taking pictures of Cabinet meetings—right, about that—it was the general responsibility of the White House photographers, but not the press. The press [unintelligible] and those kind of things.

DM: [Unintelligible] was that—

RK: At least while he was the photographer—the White House photographer—

GK: Official, you know, official.

RK: - you know, to capture events and those sorta things.

TD: All the events and—

GK: There were, at that time, under Kennedy, there was just Cecil Stoughton and Bob Knudsen. And they were both military because, up to that point, they used as many military as they could to cut down costs and secure—security. And so it wasn't until Johnson came in that he—he selected a personal official photographer, and then the others just were official.

RK: Official.

DM: Well, you know, the reason that I had to ask—brought that up is because one thing that I was curious about is if they would only take pictures—the White House photographers—take pictures from a different perspective, one that's usually for the family's interests, and then also [crosstalk]—

RK: History.

GK: And history.

DM: - and history, did—and especially with your close relationship to your father—did he ever mention that it was difficult or different, in terms of taking the autopsy photos, than what he was normally used to? And if so, can you—how to—

RK: It was a lot—a lot more difficult. It's like taking a picture of a family member who had been killed. Because he—whenever Kennedy went out on—President Kennedy went out on the boats, and since Dad was in the Navy, and he was a qualified—achieved—a boatswain, then Dad satisfied the requirements that there was a military—qualified military person on there. So when I believe that it's—you know, correct saying that whenever President Kennedy went out on his sailboat, and all o' this, and Dad was with him, was on all of those trips—so, they had a close relationship. And so he said that it—it was—it was extremely hard to—

TD: It was one of the hardest things [crosstalk]

RK: - emotional—emotionally. Yeah.

TD: But he was able to detach and be very professional, all the time, because that—he was called on to do a lot of pictures that would have—

RK: Showing—

TD: - that affects him some [crosstalk]—

RK: You know, personal—personal pictures [unintelligible].

TD: But, no, I'm saying, in all the ways—

RK: [Crosstalk]

TD: - he could always detach and, you know, he was first and foremost to capture anything that happened, correctly, as opposed to—

DM: But was it difficult to—did he say it was different, in terms of the angles and so forth, in terms of what he would normally—the types of pictures he would normally take? You know, getting in around or getting in—

GK: No.

RK: No.

DM: - did he say anything like that?

RK: No.

GK: You know, he has done so many types of pictures—

DM: But, let's say, especially with his eye injury—

GK: - in his career—

RK: - [Unintelligible]

GK: - that had absolutely—

RK: You know, actually—

GK: - it was healed by then.

RK: - actually—he, you know, we have photographs of the Black Watch that Dad took, which was the last event at the White House before President Kennedy's death. He said it really didn't—didn't matter that much.

GK: No, his eye was basically healed at that point, 'cause if you know-if you've ever gotten anything in your eye, or had an injury, they heal "like that." And, you know, this was a young man. And, you know, it was just as much a good excuse to stay home and get to know his family, you know, than it was anything. [Laughter] You know, it was—

[Laughter]

RK: Was it Shepherd—or who was it that—

DM: Shepherd?

GK: Was that the naval aide?

RK: -said that he didn't have to go [unintelligible] he didn't wanna have to fly 'anywhere, they said, because, you know, because the President—

DH: Tas—Tas Shepherd.

GK: Yeah, Taswell Shepherd.

RK: - that he just wanted to kinda—

GK: You know [crosstalk].

RK: - just gonna go down there real quick, because—

GK: You know, it's—that if he had some—

RK: [Crosstalk] he had to have more.

GK: - different meetings and the schedule, some of—light schedule—and the importance of some of it. And, so, you know, "I'd like, in here"—he scratched out that he had to go—he was supposed to go, Thanksgiving time and Christmas time, to Hyannisport. So those were all scratched in, and Johnson's stuff put in.

RK: Also, you know, with an eye, I learned from my father—most people shoot with one eye open, one eye closed. We both shot—we would shoot with two eyes open, so that if can use either eye. And once you could get used to that, it doesn't matter, 'cause I shoot with both eyes. You can use your good one. It really doesn't [unintelligible].

DH: Mind if I ask three or four more.

[Laughter]

DH: Three or four? Was your dad a Photographer's Mate, or a Boatswain's Mate, or—I may have missed it [crosstalk].

RK: Photographer's Mate.

DH: Okay. Well, I was always assuming he was, but [crosstalk].

GK: Yeah. He graduated number one from Pensacola, the photography school down there, and as a result he was assigned to the Secretary of Navy's public relations office.

DH: Did he ever mention to any of you, in relation to being there when they set up the scene, with the President removed from the casket, or anything like that? Okay.

Did he ever talk about the types of film, i.e.—I guess that's a two-part question, that—the job that he did that night—like whether—did he indicate taking color, or taking black-and-white?

JG: So if I can interrupt here, just because we're looking—this is being recorded—they were—

RK: [Crosstalk]

JG: -they're shaking their heads "no" to the previous question that you answered, 'cause that'll help you clarify it.

[Laughter]

RK: I—I was thinking about that.

[Laughter]

DH: I'm glad that somebody was.

[Laughter]

DH: He didn't indicate, then, in his discussions whether the—whether it was color or black-and-white? Do you know?

RK: I don't—I don't think so. I—I do have some recollection that I—I believe that it was all black-and-white. [Unintelligible]

TD: For some reason I keep thinking it was black-and-white, too, but I don't remember him ever saying it.

RK: [Unintelligible]

DH: Did he indicate whether the filmstock [unintelligible]?

RK: No.

DH: Or the format [unintelligible]? [Unintelligible] formats?

RK: No. He—he—he didn't indicate [unintelligible].

GK: That's a detail we don't need to know.

RK: Well, it would've been interesting, but—

DH: Some of these—taking questions, and especially years later, I'm sure that—

RK: It would've been interesting to find out what format it was [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah.

RK: He didn't mention taking any moving film or stuff, did he? And that's bearing on the same question?

JG: Of the autopsy?

RK: Of the autopsy?

DH: Correct.

RK: No.

DH: Okay.

GK: Mm-hmm.

DH: Did—in regard to the—late 1970s testimony that he gave to the House Committee on Assassinations, did he ever indicate to you the reason they gave to him for calling him in?

GK: Say that again?

TD: [Crosstalk] the autopsy?

DH: When they contacted him and said, "We want to talk to you"—'I'm assuming they contacted him and that he didn't call them—how did that transpire? Do you recall? Did he call them, or did they call him first?

GK: The Warren Commission?

DH: No, the House Committee in '78.

GK: He wouldn't have contacted anybody about that. Never. I mean, you know, you stay out of what you don't need to be into.

DH: Right. Did—did they give him a reason for why they were aware of—why they were calling? Why they wanted him to come in and see the Committee?

GK: Well, they mostly, I—I only have to assume that they wanted to see what he had to say about the pictures, and to verify that those were his pictures, and about the angles. Wouldn't you? But—

TD: [Unintelligible] any of the pictures was what he took [unintelligible].

GK: Yeah. Just the validity of 'em. And, you know, he came home and thought it was a waste, you know, 'cause , "Tey had made their minds up, and the pictures are missing. Something's wrong." [Laughter]

DH: Did he ever talk about, in relation to the autopsy, being asked not to talk about it or to remain silent, just by an official person?

TD: They would never have to ask him that, 'cause—if you don't understand—my dad just didn't talk—

GK: Understand.

TD: - my dad, to me, he kinda—

GK: [Unintelligible]

TD: - he would have—not you, 'cause he never told [crosstalk].

RK: Yeah, if he was ever asked not to discuss the information that—

TD: About, you know—

GK: That would—that he saw what he saw.

RK: Yeah.

TD: See, I never heard him say it—

RK: No.

GK: I never—

TD: - but dad was so quiet. Dad knew about the Marilyn Monroe parties [crosstalk]—

RK: He may have known but he wouldn't talk to us about stuff like that, but—

TD: He knew about all that and he never told anybody about any of that.

RK: Mm-hmm.

GK: Yeah.

RK: Yeah. But when, you know, when—when we were talking, he was—I—I remember him saying something about, you know, that he's—he's not supposed to talk about that.

DH: Did he indicate who?

RK: No. [Unintelligible]

TW: The pictures he took at the autopsy, when he first surrendered the film with the Secret Service, did he ever indicate whether he knew for certain that those were developed—ever developed?

TD: He told me that he surrendered the film, and that the Secret Service took over [unintelligible].

RK: I know back in '75, he said [unintelligible].

TW: But he was reasonably—I asked you this before, and I have a—still there's a chill down our backs—

DM: [Laughter]

TW: - that the pictures that he saw in 1978, when they were showing the photos, it was his impression that those were photos he'd taken that had been altered?

GK: Mm-hmm.

TD: [Unintelligble]

TW: And did he [crosstalk]—

RK: He saw—he saw some pictures that weren't his.

TW: Did he say that?

RK: Mm-hmm.

TW: That some of the pictures were not his?

RK: Mm-hmm.

TW: Would—did—did he indicate—

RK: [Crosstalk]—

TW: Would—did—did he indicate—

RK: [Crosstalk]—

TD: No.

TW: - whether that was puzzling to him?

RK: - to me.

TD: Not that they weren't his, but that they'd been altered, he [unintelligible].

RK: No. He said this was—this was a lot different.

TD: Oh.

DM: How do you feel about—oh, I'm sorry—

TW: Yeah, lemme, lemme—follow-up on that. And did he indicate surprise over the fact that there were other photographs, and who could have taken them? Because there's—there's—there is this other person—

RK: But he—he—

TW: - clearly from the documented account, who was the autopsy photographer at Bethesda, and that was his job.

RK: Yeah.

TW: He was a medical photographer.

JG: And that he was the only photographer there. I mean, that [crosstalk]

RK: I know, yeah.

JG: that's part of the story.

TW: I guess, the question—and I'm trying to ask in an indirect way—lemme ask you directly: is it your impression, Bob, that he might have been seeing photographs taken by another photographer? That another photographer was there?

RK: He did see some—he has seen—indicated to me some pictures that were not his.

TW: But didn't speculate on where they came from or who might have made them or—

RK: He-he said that, you know, Stringer, he said he might have, but he said he didn't know how.

JG: Did he know Stringer?

RK: Yeah.

JG: Do you know how he knew who Stringer was? Because he has a relatively—

RK: No.

TW: Okay.

RK: Yeah, I mean—

JG: - to do with your job, which—

RK: - yeah. Well, being, again, a Navy photographer, he would know other Naval photographers. And on what level he knew, you know, the [unintelligible], Stringer, I'm not sure.

JG: Stringer's name is in the—in the book here.

TD: [Unintelligible]

GK: [Unintelligible]

DH: So in addition to your Dad telling you about the late '70s, that some of the pictures were not his—I'm just trying to clarify your question [unintelligible]—did he also—I'm just trying to reconfirm—he also said that some were his, but they had been altered, in addition to some not being his?

RK: That one of 'em that he had seen—

DH: One, okay—

RK: - had been altered.

GK: But, you know, Kennedy had physicals and stuff at the Bethesda. And so I would imagine that he would—knowing his style of operation, that he knew he was going into somebody else's territory. And I've got Rolodexes full of photographers all around the government, you know, that he has on file and never eliminated from the file, from, you know, Voice of America, and, you know, State Department and all. It's just courtesy when you're going into somebody else's territory that you establish [crosstalk]—

RK: I would think that—I'm not sure, but it's just one guess—that Stringer, Mr. Stringer, probably he was in the same photo district, the—Military District of Washington, so would have operated out of NPC, I would think, as well. So, whether he knew him ahead of time, something, I'm not sure, but I—I knew that he knew him.

JG: Do you have any recollections of how you knew that your father knew him?

RK: Well—

DH: The thing he's trying to—

JG: [Crosstalk] your father said, it may not be more than what you've—what you've said already, and that what you said sounds perfectly plausible—but just any other recollections.

RK: [Unintelligible] Not really.

DH: Question: was your dad aware that Stringer was the—the record-person of the—government record, like the official autopsy photographer? Was he aware of that?

GK: Well, if he—if he was aware of it, we were not aware of it.

DH: I guess what I'm leading to, did your dad ever comment on the fact that Stringer was the official autopsy photographer of record?

RK: Not—not with any of us.

GK: Think of, that—'cause we—it was our understanding that he was the only photographer that the Secret Service would allow in there, and—

DH: And that's because he told you himself, right?

TD: Yeah.

GK: Yeah.

TD: He was real clear on that point—

GK: Yeah.

TD: - that no one else was [unintelligible].

GK: So, you know—

TD: He said, "I officially—"

RK: No one else was in there, and he was—he was in there.

GK: Yeah.

TD: And I know [Unintelligible] happened.

JG: Then how—then how—any sense of how long your father was in—in the autopsy room?

TD: The duration? No.

RK: Really don't know.

JG: Just [crosstalk] now, he could have been there at the beginning, or the end, or all the way through?

RK: I—I honestly—he never, never relayed it to me.

DM: Did he call or anything right after and let you know he was "okay" and then he'll be home—nothing like that?

GK: [Laughter] No. No. We wondered [laughter]

DM: During the evening?

GK: No.

RK: I don't think we heard from him.

GK: For three days, you know.

RK: Yeah, for two or three days. Nothing at all.

TW: Were you finished?

DH: I—I just had one more. It's a long time ago, and it may seem like a nitpick to you, but you said he wore a suit. Was it a light suit or a dark suit? If you remember.

GK: Well, I know that he—you know, he operated on a shoestring, 'cause he was working in an important place. And so, you know, he had to look the best to bring us our bread. And, so, I—I would assume, one, that it was probably dark, because at most—you know, I think he had about two suits, maybe. [Laughter]

DH: And he left home in a coat and tie that day, is that the—that's your recollection?

TD: Always.

GK: Always.

DH: Not in uniform? In a civilian coat and tie?

GK: No, he'd never be in uniform in the White House. Except, well, in the military—

TD: [Crosstalk]

GK: - receptions.

DH: Thank you.

TW: Is there anything else about—recollections that you might have about the assassination, or his experiences around the time of the assassination, or any events that might have happened afterwards but bear on the assassination, that—that we've missed, or we neglected to ask a question about, that you think's important?

RK: Not that I can think of.

TW: We're not asking you—

GK: No.

TW: - to affirm we're—we're doing good work, but I just wanna make sure we're—

[Laughter]

GK: Yeah.

TW: - you know, unless something's [crosstalk]—

GK: It's not regarding the assassination, no.

JG: Lemme—lemme try kind of a general question, and—and this is one that you can answer now, or think about it after you read the—the transcript and answer again—would—

[End of Reel 1, Side 2]

---

REEL 2

Speakers:

GK = Gloria Knudsen, widow of Robert Knudsen
TD = Terri Dalton (nee Knudsen), daughter
RK = Bob Knudsen, son
DH = Douglas Horne, ARRB Chief Analyst
JG = Jeremy Gunn, ARRB General Counsel
TW = Tim Wray, ARRB Chief Analyst
DM = David Montague, ARRB Senior Investigator

JG: Seems to me that—as you were speaking today, you all seemed perfectly credible, and that you all seemed to believe—as in that there's a little bit of disagreement about some things, which is naturally what would be expected, and all within the realms of plausibility.

What you're saying is very different from statements I have heard being made under oath. And I've taken depositions of the autopsy doctors, and the statements they made under oath are—cannot be reconciled with what you're saying, in my judgment. It—in the testimony that's recorded from the HSCA, he doesn't say that he took any pictures at the autopsy, for example. So that's quite different from—from what you're—what you're saying.

One of our jobs is try to put this stuff together and to find records and to think about it, and—

GK: Sure.

JG: - and for me, for my own purposes, I don't care who took the photographs there.

GK: [Crosstalk]

JG: I would like to know who did it, and I would like the record to be clear—

GK: Sure.

JG: - so that we don't have a—a disagreement about that. But—but I don't [crosstalk]—

BK: [Crosstalk]

[Laughter]

JG: - I don't care.

What I'd like you to do, if you could—and again, after you think about this or anything that, you know, comes to mind now—is can you think of any leads that you could give us, that could help sort out what I perceive as an inconsistency in what you have said versus other things that we have—what we have heard. But if you can think of someone else to whom you might have spoken, or something that you can read in the testimony that seems to you to be—prompt a recollection, or is not quite right, or anything else that you can think of that could help put—provide an explanation for us. So if you could do that, that would be very helpful. So you know, we'd be glad to hear back from you, if you ask to revisit, or anything else that you can think of.

RK: Yeah. You know, that [unintelligible] is that what—what—what—what little, you know, he said about it, different things, and communicated to us, that was it. That's all of it—

JG: One other minor thing that's still [crosstalk]—

GK: Okay, I would like to show you something that you may not have seen in his book.

TD: You didn't see it before now.

GK: [Laughter]

DM: What is that first word?

TD: "Chin to hair."

DM: "Chin to hair."

TD: Measurements from the [unintelligible].

GK: [Laughter]

TD: He made a note.

HM: "7.2 or 7 and a quarter—"

TD: "And a quarter."

DM: "Back of head, inch and 8 inches"—or "8"—what does that mean to you?

GK: The question is—that mean to you?

DM: [Laughter] Did he say anything about that to you all, before?

GK: I spotted it last night.

DM: Oh, okay.

[Laughter]

DM: Wel, lemme [unintelligible]—

[Laughter]

TD: We talked about it this morning. It just blew us away 'cause that's typical of what my father would do. He put it where only he knew where to find it if he needed it.

GK: You know, you—none of you saw it.

JG: How do you—how do you know this is from the autopsy?

GK: I don't. Do you?

JG: No, but—I'm not sure what it means.

GK: I'm not sure, either, but, you know.

JG: "Chin to hair."

TW: Lemme look at that [unintelligible]—

[Laughter]

JG: [Crosstalk] definitely "chin to—"[crosstalk].

RK: We noticed, just—thought might be interesting after so many [unintelligible].

TD: Don't you find that interesting?

RK: I don't know.

TW: I don't know.

GK: Isn't that interesting?

JG: It's [unintelligible]

GK: But I'll tell you—

TD: [Crosstalk] to find in a normal address book.

RK: He didn't tell us what it meant, [unintelligible].

GK: And look: it's in such a neat, inconspicuous spot. Neat—and he—

HM: Did he always carry that on his—in his jacket, or—

GK: Yes.

TD: Everywhere.

DM: - had another [crosstalk]—

GK: Everywhere.

JG: Lemme try another question: there's a reference—I don't remember the date, somewhere in December—of a reference to an x-ray. Do you recall whether that was his own x-ray or anything else?

DM: That was December 9th, I think it was, earlier.

GK: I don't know.

JG: Do you know whether he went to the doctor?

GK: Because he doesn't have any of his own, you know, doctor appointments [unintelligible].

TD: But there is something [unintelligible]

DM: Sure that there's a listing—I think it was December 3rd or December 9th—where it just says "x-ray."

GK: Yeah.

TD: That's all it says.

JG: Would you mind if I made photocopies of, you know, the pages in there?—The ones that are—

TD: There was something interesting in the pages back [unintelligible].

GK: Mm-hmm.

TD: Yeah.

DM: Other ones?

TD: The ones that you were looking at.

[Laughter]

DM: Okay.

DH: [Unintelligible]

DM: Well, I looked at one that said, in "D.C.", I looked at one that said "Stringer"—

TD: Stringer.

DM: - and the one that you showed me.

TD: Oh. Yeah.

DM: Are there any others you could see? That I missed?

TD: No, but I just made note of where you were looking—

DM: Oh, okay. [Laughter]

TD: - and I checked where like—I saw what you saw, and I was like, "Well, that's interesting."

DH: Was the Stringer notation—

DM: Under [crosstalk]

DH: - alphabetical or under "B?"

DM: The under—under—in the address portion in the back under "S."

GK: Yeah, I had seen Stringer in there, too.

TD: And in the front, too, yeah.

DM: In the front, as well? I didn't—

TD: Wasn't there one which had "A-B," too? There was one thing about "Bethesda – Stringer."

RK: "Bethesda."

DM: I saw "Atkins."

DH: "Bethesda"—that's where "Bethesda – Stringer" is.

DM: Okay.

DH: There's another Stringer under "S."

DM: Oh, I'm sorry.

TD: No, its under "Bethesda – Stringer."

DM: So, I know, with—especially with your knowledge of the—the—the photography, and working with your father—did he ever give any kind of indication as to—you said he—he knew, before he died, he said he knew who had altered the photo? That's what he said? That he–he knew who was responsible? Did he ever say who that person was?

RK: Not—not to me.

DM: Okay.

RK: You know he—I don't think he said that. He might have said that to [unintelligible].

DM: Terri? Terri?

TD: He said he knew it was altered, but he never—

RK: He never [unintelligible].

DM: Well, lemme ask you one other photo-related question, then: do you know if he used, for the purpose of the autopsy, did he use the normal—the same camera equipment he would normally use?

RK: I would assume it, you know. When he went, when he'd go any place he'd carry his own bag. So I know that he would have his own equipment in it—and normally, the 35 millimeter and a [unintelligible]

DM: When he retired, did he have to—was it—it was government-issued?

GK: No.

DM: Just his?

GK: No. [Unintelligible] his own [crosstalk].

RK: I think it's—the way that they—they did—they do things strange, a lot different than they do now. They would—like Nikon would give him cameras to use; would say, "Here is your camera. Would you like to use it in the White House?"

[Laughter]

RK: And, so that's—he used a lotta that.

DM: So he just—did he—did he have stuff still and then he was using his—he still had?

RK: [Crosstalk] Yeah. [unintelligible]

DM: He did?

RK: [Unintelligible]

DM: Did he specify, "This was the one we used in the autopsy?" or—

RK: No, he never—never—would say it's—I—I don't know whether it was 35 or [unintelligible].

DM: 'Cause, you see, that—

RK: You know, 'cause he used—he used a Bronica [unintelligible] and 35 millimeter as well as 4 by 5.

DM: 'Cause, you know, the reason I ask, in addition, one of our—as Jeremy was talking about—one of our purposes is to, well, mainly get records in the Archives. And our definition of what's considered an "assassination-related record" is pretty broad. We—we get, in terms of audiovisual types of records, you know, if people have things that they want to donate to the Collection, they can do these [unintelligible] and sometimes it cvan go on a deed of gift and [unintelligible]. So if that's something that you're willing to donate to the Collection [unintelligible]—

RK: Mm-hmm.

DM: - is a contribution [unintelligible].

RK: Yeah. They might be—you know, records, you know, the first pictures of—of the casket taken, in-state, there at the White House—not in-state, but, you know, the White House—I don't know. Are those—is that part of the collection?

DH: We could check back.

TD: The White House [unintelligible].

GK: [Unintelligible] donate what—what would be—

DM: Well, that's something—I mean just—I was just putting that thought, you know, mention it to you—something we could discuss later on. Right now, the main thing is we really are trying to understand every thing about which—which [unintelligible]. It's just something, of course it's—but you—you have the materials that I sent you regarding—you know what our purpoose is. And if there's something you weren't sure, to spell it out if you want to.

GK: Right. Yeah. Well, you know, I don't know that any of that is of any purpose for the "assassination records," you know. We're proud of what he did.

DM: He had an impressive career.

GK: And he did. So, you know, that's the only thing. But I'm sure that these are in the Kennedy Library, as well, 'cause there could have been with his—I know that—

RK: That is good, though, I would say, because they have the pictures [unintelligible]—

GK: Mm-hmm. So, you know, I wouldn't have any qualms about donating some of that, but—

TW: But they're just reproductions of ones that are already [unintelligible]?

GK: Well, I would assume that they're there, but, you know, in the same [crosstalk].

RK: Some of those are, I know, 'cause they've been used in publications [unintelligible].

GK: Mm-hmm.

JG: Did the reference to the x-ray prompt any recollection of this—in [crosstalk]?

GK: Well, he—well, I would say that that's where he probably—he was having some trouble with his heart, and so x-ray—oh, in '62.

RK: No.

GK: No.

RK: [Crosstalk]

TD: No, he wouldn't have had it in '63. There wouldn't have been anything, right?

GK: No. I'm saying "no."

RK: Yeah.

GK: You know, '62 and '63, I [crosstalk]—

RK: He didn't have any.

TD: He didn't have any.

GK: Yeah. Yeah. No. Uh-huh.

JG: Well, would you mind if we took a—photocopies of a few pages from that? Would that be okay?

GK: Yeah.

DM: I—I really don't have any other questions, myself. I don't know if anyone else does.

JG: Thanks. Thanks very much.

DM: Certainly, and we wanna thank you. Just if—for—for the record: we started around 10:15 and it's around 12 noon now. So at this point we wanna thank you very much.

GK: Yeah.

DM: If you have any other questions and, especially dealing with what Jeremy talked about, in terms of—after this conversation, I'm sure you're gonna discuss this some more—

[Laughter]

DM: - to feel free to contact any one of us, and to relay anything that you might feel of interest to us. And, of course, I'll—I'll follow up with—a thank you, you know, correspondence to you, and for your time today. Alright?

DH: We have the home game version of our show, here.

[Laughter]

DH: These are the House Committee records related to your husband. Some are telephone reports that people wrote up after a phone call, and then there's the deposition transcript. And in addition, there's a magazine article we located this week which we brought, in which it quotes a discussion of the autopsy from '77, from the year before, of the House Committee, and I've given you noow, to [unintelligible].

DM: Alright.

GK: Uh-huh. Thank you, very much.

[Crosstalk]

[Laughter]

GK: You know, it—we'll see.

RK: [Unintelligible] little bit of everything, from political—

TD: [Unintelligible]

GK: [Crosstalk]

RK: Commercial [unintelligible].

DH: Would you like us to do this right now and return it to you?

DM: [Crosstalk] [Laughter]

[Crosstalk]

DM: Thank you.

DH: [Crosstalk]

DM: Do you all want—

[End of Reel 2]